4 Freedoms

Watching the Detectives Radio Interview

Al Link and Pala Copeland interviewed by Rick Vassallo May 9, 2003 on the current affairs program Watching the Detectives, CIUT FM 89.5

You're listening to CIUT 89.5 FM, my name is Rick Vassallo. The show is Watching the Detectives, and I have Al Link and Pala Copeland on the line from their home in Pembroke ,Ont. They are the authors of a book called Soul Sex, Tantra for Two and we're here to discuss this liberating spiritual practice called Tantra.  

RV: Good morning to you. What's the weather like in Pembroke today?

PC: It's beautiful, it's sunny and gorgeous. We were just sitting out on our deck having some green tea, watching the ducks float by.  

RV: Before we get into the myriad aspects of the technique of Tantra, I wanted to back up a bit and start the conversation off with the topic of sexuality in general. At least in the conventional sense, often times sexuality confers an aura of worldliness and sophistication. And yet there's also a tremendous amount of manipulation that goes into how we experience our sexuality. Manipulations that serve other ends and that keep us from being able to find our divination and our true bliss. So, I'm curious about how the two of you found both each other and also how you discovered this path called Tantra.  

PC: Well for both of us, sex has always been an important part of our lives, and in some cases a driving force and so we were caught up in a lot of that, and a lot of the things you were just talking about, the difficulties with sexuality in the world. When we first met each other our first attraction was basically a sexual one.

We started off as lovers, intensely passionate lovers. Early in our relationship we went off to Ottawa for a lovers weekend. While we were there, we'd been making love for quite some time. We had this spontaneous mystical experience that was absolutely extraordinary. It was something we'd never experienced before. We'd had wonderful orgasms but this was beyond that, we were lying there in the afterglow of making love. I touched Al with my foot and where I touched him, this immense beam of energy rushed through my body. I took my foot away and it stopped, I put it back and it started. We experimented with touching each other in various places and everywhere we touched, this magical blast of pleasure rushed through. So then we just laid together, and experienced an expanded consciousness that was extraordinary. There was intense physical pleasure and a soul joining that was transporting us to mystical places. And this lasted for hours. It was like nothing we'd ever experienced before. I had no idea what it was. But Al who was a spiritual explorer had heard about Tantra, and he said "Oh, I think that's what we did". So we found out that this was something people had been doing for thousands of years, building high sexual charge and then using that for this extended pleasure and this ecstatic connection. So it became our hobby for many years.

RV: Now your interpretation Pala would contradict some of the theories that Tantra is not something that happens to you so much as something that you impose on your body and your partner's body, etc.  

AL: Well every spiritual practice has a discipline of usually body and mind combined. Tantra is no different than that. However many people have experienced the profound gift of grace, where the spirit just pours in. That's more or less what happened to us and certainly that's available to anyone whether they make any effort or not. But for most people to be realistic, some actual disciplined practice opens the door.  

RV: That was another point I wanted to draw upon. This whole concept you hear from yoga practitioners about blockages. I practice Kundalini yoga for example which I suppose is a cousin of Tantra in a way. I'm struck when I work on people also, because I work in the field of bodywork, of the extent of people's blockages. Spinal blocks and blockages in various aspects of their body. I've been under the impression that we cannot experience any real satisfaction in the Tantric path until certain blockages are removed.  

AL: Well, I don't really believe that is the case. I'm not saying that can't be the case. I think that for most average people, it's really a desire to open to a spiritual awakening, open to the Divine to come in. The blocks will then start to surface and to come to your attention, so that you can take action and do your inner work. At any point along the way, whether you're the worst sinner in the world, whatever that means, or already advanced on the path. At any point along the way, people can have experiences of enlightenment, satori, etc. Those are available to everyone as part of our birthright, as far as I'm concerned.

RV: Do you feel you have to censor certain outer stimulation though to go within? After all, sex is used to sell everything from ice cream to automobiles. Perhaps this is because many people don't have a very solid identification with their own bodies. How do you turn that around? For most people and I'd say particularly men, their internal sexual life is very much directed by external stimulation, primarily through the sense of the visual I'd imagine....

PC: Yes, well actually that's a very important part of it. You use the stimulation of the senses of the body: vision, touch, taste, sound, smell, to help awaken the desire and the sexual excitement and the sexual energy. Then you direct it with your intention, so that you use your mind as a servant to help open your heart. It is that heart opening that helps to remove those blockages, helps to surrender to the Divine within yourself, within your lover. And by using that external stimulation of the body, you can then bring that charge to open the heart and to focus it with your intention.

Your intention in sacred sex is different than your intention in regular sex. In regular sex it's basically, lets have some pleasure, lets get off, lets get a release. With sacred sex, your intention is to unite all elements of yourself, to unite with your partner and to unite with the Divine. That is a driving force and the difference between regular and sacred sexuality.

AL: Also, I think in our culture, in North America and I think it's probably global, there tends to be the idea that your inner work is very, very difficult and it takes years and years and years. And then maybe, after many years of effort you can achieve some sort of awakening. I think that's an error of judgment. Experiences of opening and awakening and spiritual expansion, expansion of consciousness—these things are available at any time, by opening and being available to that, you really speed up your process of becoming whole. Rather than the notion that you have to do all this work first.  

RV: I would agree with you that most people have some experience of a Divine expression, coming through them spontaneously, here and there. But I guess, I'm sort of tripped up around the idea that you either have a more secular sexual expression or you have a Divine sexual expression, but that you can't be on both paths concurrently.  

Al: Well I think the primary difference between the secular versus the sacred is really one of intention. I don't think it's any more complicated than that. By your intention, you raise ordinary friction sex to a much higher level where it becomes energetic and spiritual. That intention is just a choice, it's a decision you make. But it is backed up by some behaviors. So for example, we create a sacred space for our loving. And we extend that time over many hours instead of just a few minutes. There's enough time for us to really, really connect. There's no speeding on towards the goal of an orgasm for example. There's an intentional practice of being aware and being present fully in the moment. Moment-to-moment, rather than trying to get somewhere. And so there are things that people can do right now to transform their sexuality. Today, tonight, tomorrow, not weeks or months or years from now, into a more sacred practice.

RV: Now you guys must have enquiries from all walks of life, all types of different people. What about those people who would say, hypothetically anyways "I'm not interested in the Divine aspect of this. I've heard about multiple orgasms and that's what I want, to be able to experience that....  

PC: Oh yeah. I'd say maybe half of the people that come to our workshops are interested in the spiritual aspect of sexuality and half are interested in becoming better lovers. It's quite an interesting phenomenon actually that when you start to follow these practices, whether it's simply for more physical pleasure, the things that begin to happen with that, as you begin to move the energy, you start to experience phenomenon that can only be described as Divine and mystical. Whether you're looking for them or not, they come with the practice. So it's sort of a bonus.  

RV: So the former self begins to fall away and another self begins to emerge, spontaneously, or automatically?  

AL: I think to some extent that happens. I'm not trying to imply, we're not suggesting that there's no need to make an effort or that there's no work involved or anything like that. I think there is. But there's a kind of attitude that pleasure is somehow bad, that ordinary sex, that, somehow there's something wrong with it. In fact that's not our position. We think that sex is a wonderful thing, that it's a doorway to a spiritual awakening. I think that's it's a far more accessible doorway than lengthy, difficult, rigorous paths with pain and suffering. So we think pleasure is good and so if people want to experience more pleasure and that's why they come to our workshops, they're most welcome. What they find is that with some months of practicing some of the techniques that we share with them, that they begin to have a higher spiritual experience. It just happens.

RV: I'm playing devil's advocate with you. I'm not saying that I don't agree with you on that. I certainly embody a sex positive approach myself. However if you look at our culture since the sexual revolutions of the sixties, there was supposed to be this worldwide explosion of sexual liberation. What is your take on where we are as a species as a result of those changes? It looks like progress is more sideways than forwards. For all the breakthroughs that certain individuals have made in connecting the two, there's just a phenomenal amount of manipulation around sexuality today, sex has become very circumscribed, and as a result, I feel that many people are in states of perpetual anxiety about sexuality, perhaps more than ever, as well.  

AL: We're certainly not suggesting the pursuit of sexual pleasure as a sort of hedonistic way of living, where you just make love with anyone at anytime, and somehow that's going to liberate you. That's not the idea at all.  

RV: But at the same time, I imagine you're not in a position to be moralizing, in your roles. That 'moralizing' is left up to those people who come to work with you, right? I guess what I'm saying is that it's a difficult terrain you're in, no?  

PC: Yes, it is a difficult terrain. I guess the reason our society is so obsessed with sex, is that it is a very, very powerful force. It is a drive that we all have, and it is one of the easiest ways for ordinary people to touch the Divine. So it is captured and manipulated and used for many, many things. One of the very sad things that has happened is that we have very much separated sex from spirit in our culture, in most cultures in the world. There's very few cultures in fact that combine the two. And I think it is because of the power of it. It is one of the easiest ways for ordinary people to experience the Divine—through heart opened, deep sexual connection. That involves a fair bit of knowledge of sexuality as well, it's not just a quick 10 minute, wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am sex. It's a very big, intimate, prolonged, diving into pleasure on all levels. Many of our religious teachings have taught us that we shouldn't be doing that.

AL: We actually teach sexual mastery which has nothing to do with control. Opening your heart requires surrender, not control. However, there's a mastery that's involved, which means there are certain techniques that need to be learned, there are certain techniques that are very interesting that have been used for thousands of years that make a lot of difference in the kinds of experiences people have when they are making love.

So that for example, people learn how to do some very simple muscle contraction exercises which enables them to take the very hot sexual energy as it's building up in the genital area and move it away, so that it begins to circulate throughout the entire body. And so then by extending the lovemaking over a period of hours, they build up a very high sexual charge, but that charge is freely moving throughout their entire body, instead of being stuck in one location. As they begin to move the sexual energy successfully and build that higher charge over a longer period of lovemaking, then they begin to have the more spiritual kinds of experiences.

They find out that there's something more than physical pleasure. Not that there's anything wrong with physical pleasure, just that there's something else. They then learn some techniques for example for delaying the ejaculation so that they can last longer for their female partners to become fully awakened sexually and become fully orgasmic. And there are many other aspects to it as well, but some of these techniques that frankly we find many people are ignorant about. They just don't know about, they think that what they learned in high school is all they need to know, but in fact there's a great deal more, to sexual mastery.

RV: Right. Certain things happen biologically, arousal for example, but beyond that there's still a whole other realm. I would imagine that part of what you prescribe is a lot of eye contact, maintaining eye contact. Is that something that in your experience is difficult to sustain? Prolonged eye contact, or light, gentle stroking? My sense is what many people are more comfortable with the rough pounding kind of stuff than with the stuff that might evoke actual feelings to emerge. I'm asking for the general public's sake.

PC: There is a lot of eye contact in Tantric loving practice. People can find it difficult because it does make them vulnerable. When you are really looking into one another's eyes, they are the windows to the soul and you can't hide there. It is difficult at first, for people to do those things, to make eye contact if they aren't feeling fully present or very connected to their lover. But once you start to experience it and allow yourself to be vulnerable, the intensity of connection is so much greater, that you begin to understand that you want to do it, you need to do it, because it increases the connection and the pleasure.

AL: We help people to go to a series of sexual arousal peaks, rather than in the more traditional kinds of lovemaking the excitement builds to a peak and then usually the man ejaculates and the lovemaking is over, and that entire time period maybe 5 or 10 minutes, or perhaps, 15 or 20 or 30 minutes. But by taking a period of hours to extend the lovemaking and by the way, that's not just intercourse, there are many other aspects and they build up to a peak and then they level off there, with techniques like opening their eyes, making eye contact, doing very slow, intentional abdominal breathing techniques that we teach. Becoming very still and very quiet, and doing some visualizations and some other things, they learn to work with that energy at a peak and stay there and then the energy drops a bit and then they can come back to a more active lovemaking place, build up to another peak and they can go to successive peaks, over hours this way, each one building to a higher and more intense energy level. So it's very different and these techniques make it different. But I would have to emphasize that the most important thing in Tantra is opening your heart, surrendering to what is happening, rather than 'making' it happen. But the techniques are important and that's maybe 10% of what people learn.

RV: What about the role of fantasy. Our minds are on overload most of the time. I presume this is a huge burden in itself, to undo this tendency to be in the realm of fantasy, which would take you out of contact with your partner, primarily, no?

PC: Yeah, and what we suggest is that Tantra is very imaginative and essentially anything goes, so if you have a fantasy, a situational fantasy you would then act it out. Rather than having it happen in your head. You want to be fully and utterly and completely present for your partner and connected. We suggest that anything that takes you away from that connection, that takes you away from anywhere that you are now will detract from your experience in Tantric loving. Anything that will bring you more present, into more connectedness with your lover will enhance that experience. So fantasy for us is situational fantasy. You play, you act out, you don't hide away in your head.

AL: There are quite a few resources available on our website, articles and links to other sites, etc, that people can access for free, can explore at their leisure and begin learning, links to books, videos, etc. We do have weekends and intro sessions in the Toronto area as well as the weekends we're offering from here. http://www.tantra-sex.com

RV: Do you end up in the experience of doing a lot of sexual counseling, with couples that are either not appropriate for each other or not wanting to work things through and are coming to you as a last resort to get some 'bang' going where, really the relationship is wilting?

PC: We get some of that but essentially most of the people that come to us have a pretty good relationship to begin with and they want to make it better and they want to take it to a deeper level. Or they are single and are interested in exploring sexuality, they're interested in working with their own bodies, on their own and then they'll be better able to apply that when they are in a relationship. Essentially, learning to work with your sexual energy and your energy in general is something that you have to do. So, we teach in our sessions that we are each individually responsible for our own sexual health, satisfaction and our own spiritual progress. Your partner, or facilitator doesn't do it for you. So learning about your own body, how you can work with your sexual energy, is something that a lot of individuals are very interested in. Our work is therapeutic but we aren't therapists as such.

RV: What about gay or lesbian oriented people. Can you work with them in much the same way or do you have to 'tweak' the program?

Al: We have had gay and lesbian participants and couples. We pretty much work with them the same way. There are some subtle differences. I'm kind of thinking that it's more of a language difference, gays and lesbians have a sort of different language, but the techniques of working with your sexual energy are pretty much applicable to anyone, anywhere, whatever your sexual preference is.

RV: I've heard that in some aspects it's easier because generally there is more familiarity with the male or female body in same-sex dynamics, but others claim it's more difficult because there isn't the polarity of energy...mind you men and women both have masculine and feminine energy poles within them, so that might be a bias based on misinformation....

Al: One of the things that might make it easier with gays would be their ability to surrender and relax and let go rather than needing to 'make it happen' but that's not really anything scientifically based, it's just a speculation and a total generalization. To the extent though, and this is for anyone—that you know how to surrender, you can be in the moment, out of your head, out of thinking, that you can pay attention to sensory information, you know how to breathe, a few things like that—if you know how to do that, Tantra will go very fast for you.

RV: Thanks so much for this guys. It was a real pleasure talking with you. All the best to you both!

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